an example of socialist medical practices

. . . is the leaving of a 22-year-old man to die of thirst in a leading teaching hospital while he repeatedly asks nurses and police for water.  Of course, I’m sure the nurses didn’t do this out of socialist motives or anything, but incidents of this sort are the logical extension of what must neccessarily happen to medical care when it is offered for free.  Free medical care will lead to a massive increase in demand, which will then lead to severe shortages of people able to provide quality medical care, which will lead to tragedies.  Cause and effect.

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9 Comments

  1. Posted 1119, 8th March, 2010 at 1119, 8th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Mitchell, there have been plenty of people to die like this in our hospitals here.

    So, free medical care (which is not being advocated, and in reality, we kinda have) will lead to more people dying? You mean like making medical insurance so expensive that it cannot be purchased by the lower end of the middle class will keep people alive?

    So, we shouldn’t feed the hungry either because they might tell their friends. And only so much cotton can be grown so don’t clothe the naked. And live the idiots in prison because if we see one, we have to see them all.

    And what exactly are ‘socialist motives’? You mean live feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and having all things common in a community so that everyone is equal?

    I would prefer to think that human laziness and apathy to another’s situation is what causes these types of things, not what economic system one is in.

  2. Posted 1706, 8th March, 2010 at 1706, 8th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Far too many people die in hospitals, in both capitalistic and socialistic situations (and most situations are a mixture of the two).

    It is my opinion that providing free State-provided medical care must neccessarily lead to a reduction of quality, through the laws of cause and effect. And despite complaints about the price of medical insurance, it cannot be really cheap because medical care is expensive. If medical care is too expensive, it is my opinion that the only effective way to lower prices is through competition.

    I absolutely believe in feeding the hungry. And their friends. However, I don’t see any way this can be done outside of voluntary charitable channels that does not result in severe negative consequences. And I definitely would never seek to restrict the amount of available clothing or to imprison mentally retarded people for the convenience of not seeing them.

    Let me quote myself on ‘socialist motives’ and then clear up what I was trying so awkwardly to say:

    Of course, I’m sure the nurses didn’t do this out of socialist motives or anything, but incidents of this sort are the logical extension of what must neccessarily happen to medical care when it is offered for free.

    And here’s what I was trying to say. Perhaps I should have phrased it this way. I think I’ll add a clarification to my post.

    Now, I won’t pretend that there is any sort of evil socialist plot to make things happen. It’s not as though the socialist motive to provide goods to the poor suddenly leads nurses to treat patients with unspeakable cruelty. But a severe shortage or goods or services, in this case of actual medical care, are the inevitable result of governmental price-fixing.

    Now, I believe in feeding the hungry and healing the sick. But “having all things common in a community so that everyone is equal,” being an appeal to Scripture, deserves a more thorough treatment than I can squeeze into comments to a post. And so my next post will be entitled “communism, the free market, and the early church.” In it I’ll try to outline how I deal with the Acts reference and a few other Scriptures about sharing and wealth.

    And finally, I also would prefer to think that human laziness and apathy are what causes preventable human suffering, but I’m afraid market structure produces significant effects on the way people behave. Compare, for example, Cuba to Ireland. I doubt the people of Cuba are by nature lazier or apatheticker than the Irish, nor does Cuba have less natural resources. And so the only explanation I can think of is the fact that the differences in the political and economic structures naturally produce different behavior in people who follow the logical implications of those structures.

  3. Posted 2009, 8th March, 2010 at 2009, 8th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Mitchell,

    Your opinion, while yours, I believe to be unfounded. I note that the medical systems in Canada and Europe seem to be doing pretty well, well enough for Sarah Palin to use it.

    Further, by that logic, a capitalistic society should help to prevent those problems. One word: Toyota. Because of a need for profit, corners were cut. The problem really is, is humanity. We seek the easiest route to the maxim benefit.

    What you say is the inevitable result of government price-fixing is unprovable. Further, again, incidents such as these, happen on a regular basis in a capitalistic society, so much so that States had to pass laws to prevent hospitals from withholding care for the inability to pay.

    Actually, Cuba and Ireland are bad comparisons for various reasons. Further, if one would study socialism, Cuba simply doesn’t fall into that category. Plus, unlike Ireland, Cuba has been under trade restrictions for decades. In a global modal, especially after what Cuba freed itself from, international trade is needed to sustain an economy.

    I do feel like, however, one of the ways to fix our insurance problems is competition, and the first thing I would do is to erase the ban on anti-trust rules being applied to health insurance.

  4. Posted 2300, 8th March, 2010 at 2300, 8th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Joel,

    It is commonly said that Canada’s healthcare is an example of a flourishing public health care system. But the Chief Justice of Canada’s Supreme Court disagrees, saying that the system was dysfunctional and lead to the exact sorts of shortages that would be predicted by the laws of cause and effect that govern all economies:

    ”The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health-care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care,” Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote. ”The evidence also demonstrates that the prohibition against private health insurance and its consequence of denying people vital health care result in physical and psychological suffering.”

    The situation in Europe is much the same, with the difference that Europe’s governments are for the most part even more debt-ridden and troubled than Canada’s.

    Toyota does little to advance arguments against the free market, because although it demonstrates that sometimes businessmen do indeed from time to time make mistakes that cost lives, regulators sat on this problem despite three years of reported problems. And if I understand things correctly, Toyota has just shown that Gilbert’s accusations against their wiring have not yet been satisfactorily proven. And even if it is demonstrated that Toyota cut corners and people died, I’d argue that the choices made by consumers on the free market would be just as or more effective in preventing future similar mistakes than the massive amounts of regulation we’re being forced to pay for.

    And I’m very leery of believing that anti-trust legislation actually does any good at all other than waste money and oppress businesses. An example of the way the United State’s anti-trust laws be seen in my recent FBI here to save us from ice-packing cartels.

  5. Posted 0855, 9th March, 2010 at 0855, 9th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Mitchell, it’s a good think we agree to love God.

  6. Posted 1258, 9th March, 2010 at 1258, 9th March, 2010 | Permalink

    Thank goodness we’ve got at least that in common.

  7. Posted 1300, 9th March, 2010 at 1300, 9th March, 2010 | Permalink

    We have more than that – I think we both love this country and want to see it be what we both think it is. We just disagree on how to get there.

  8. Posted 1646, 9th March, 2010 at 1646, 9th March, 2010 | Permalink

    No doubt. And it’s a reason to be thankful for freedom of speech and beliefs. And to tell the truth, I think that honest Christian people who believe in honest and just government, regardless of their political allegiances, are good for society overall. And we both agree in the redistribution of resources to those in need, even if we disagree on the channels to do so. I’d say when the big picture is looked at, our political and religious differences, though significant, are much smaller than our points of agreement.

  9. Posted 1647, 9th March, 2010 at 1647, 9th March, 2010 | Permalink

    And I’m against violent right-wing revolution, by the way, whether Tea Partyist or secessionist, or what have you.

One Trackback

  1. By social justice in the book of amos on 2213, 9th March, 2010 at 2213, 9th March, 2010

    [...] myself and Joel have been talking a bit (here and here) through the issues of economic justice, and whether good economic policies are more [...]

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